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BruceK Comments 11/29/22

You asked me what I’d do at Fantasy? I just looked at the mic list you sent. Dang… You still don’t have a matched trio of vintage Neumann M50s? Are you trying to tell me that Foothill can’t afford a measely $75-$90K for a trio of mics??? How can we stage a faux orchestra without the quintessential Decca Tree and the mics that time has proven are the most preferred for this application????? Perhaps we should postpone this session until you can come up with these goods?

Fantasy never had three M50s as far as I know. In their heyday, they did have something like five U47s though, and at least a pair of M49s. Until Concord Jazz bought them out and pilfered the best of the best gear down to their studio in LA. I still miss the ancient RCA BA6 compressor! This thing was badass!

Okay… I know you expect me to be serious, so I’ll give it a try: Your suggested list more than covers it as far as I’m concerned. I think you were right in at least addressing some concern over the number of tracks you want to devote to each “chair" in the section—let’s say the orchestration requires four voices (violin 1, violin 2, viola, and cello) and to create the "section sound" you’re going to want at least three unique performances (chairs) for each voice, that’s 4 x 3 = 12 (groups of) tracks. If the coverage per chair is a spaced pair and two spots, that’s 12 x 4 =48 tracks. If you go with the full 7 channels listed above, that’s 12 x 7 = 84 tracks. In my experience and in my opinion, that’s a lot of tracks to manage! If track management is the principle point of the lesson, then I suppose yes, go with 12 x 7, otherwise, that seems unnecessarily excessive to me. If the point of the lesson is building a somewhat believable faux orchestra sound utilizing one or two players, then it seems to me that four channels per chair is plenty. And in my experience with the two faux orchestra services I’ve worked with over the past decade (Stevie Black in LA, and Maria Grigoryeva in Russia), they tend to go with a stereo room and a single spot, probably for the very reason of track management.

Before reading your email this morning, I was going to suggest either the Schoeps or DPA for the spaced pair. As for the top spot, I have to leave this choice up to you because even though I have plenty of experience with 414s and U87s, in my opinion the particular mic and the condition it’s in have just as much to do with the way they sound as does the manufacturer and model. Similarly, I only have very limited experience with the USM69s and Telefunken 216—just the experiences I’ve had there—I did quite like the sound of those USM69s, and not so much the Telefunken. My main objective with a top spot is to capture the sound of the strings without too much zing, hence my comment in last night’s email about wanting a “warm” sounding top spot mic. I thought I remembered you having the AEA and looking at your list confirms it—that would be perfect for the back spot. Of course it can’t hurt to have the X/Y, though for the purpose of creating an illusion of a full section from just one player, I envision the spaced pair as being more useful because of its “spaciousness." In the context of creating an orchestral presentation I don’t see the need for a pickup/DI, but it could conceivably come in handy for some sort of electronic treatment that at least in my opinion wouldn’t fall under the category of a purely “orchestral treatment.” So my vote is try to keep the track count down, and go with a spaced pair and at least a single spot. If you’re feeling like splurging, add a 2nd spot. If you decide to go with a single spot, then depending on how your particular AEA sounds as an individual representative of the ribbon mic family (I’d be especially concerned with the condition of the ribbon in a school setting…), I might consider using the AEA 44 for that. My 2¢

BruceT Wrote 11/29/22

BTW, Dr Kaphan. You know something I have really learned, realized and continuously reminded of? At the end of the day, my job has been to make tangible "assignments"that students are required to DO (out of, and after, all this) with tangible DUE dates that directly affect their grade. Remember last quarter when you set up a (very impressive) microphone collection to record Stacy Chan performing Debussy on the piano? Or, when you demonstrated some AMAZING microphone techniques using "distortion" when recording percussionist Dave Dilluio? Those were amazing moments for students to behold. But..to really "bang it home?" We gotta use the audio assets, with demonstrated/explained microphone techniques rolled into specific ASSIGNMENTS (exercises) for all the students to DO!

BruceK Wrote 11/29/22

I agree wholeheartedly that there’s a fundamental difference between solely listening versus rolling up your sleeves and actually either setting up gear to capture sounds, or at least manipulating already-captured sounds. Over time I may have shifted my attitude about various things, but one thing I’ve always believed (and still do) about recording is that there is no substitute for experience. Case in point: one of my clients-turned-friends has a son who has been creating video and music since his middle single digits. He’s now 15. I’ve “been there” for him along the way, helping him devise good data storage habits, collaborating on music, etc., etc. He has a pandemic-era video project that he’s now editing, where he is integrating numerous Zoom recordings that he and his collaborators have recorded in widely varying circumstances, so he’s wrestling with trying to get consistent dialog levels and is delving into compression more seriously than ever before. He clearly understood the concepts we talked about when discussing compression but was having trouble putting them to use. He brought his laptop, with Final Cut Pro on it down to my studio where we messed around with the onboard (plugin) compressor. [Side note: James Gangwer was the head tech at Fantasy for many years before they closed. He referred to plugins as “cartoon hardware.” Now I don’t feel that way myself—I love plugins!] As the last generation to grow up in analog but currently live in a digital world, I think our generation had a distinct advantage growing up with the visceral, actual-fingers-on-actual knobs, with actual three dimensional VU metering. I introduced my young friend to an actual hardware UREI 1176, running some drums through it so he could mess around with the knobs, watch the meter, and hear the results. Bingo. Concepts cemented. We are still analog creatures no matter how disembodied we try to re-envision ourselves.

P.S. In followup to your email yesterday, I “owned" Sibelius until Avid decided to make license “ownership” a subscription. Then I opted to go with Finale—they offered a great deal for people jumping ship on Avid and at least as far as I’m aware, they’ve yet to adopt the subscription model. I’m by no means an expert at either of these two programs, but I have friends who are expert at Finale, which comes in very handy when I hit the wall.

Stu Wrote 11/29/22

Thoughts - not too organized so fits this whole dialog! LOL. ;)

My take on the "orchestra sound" is to use a stereo pair in order to get the distance and directionality into the equation. A typical orchestra stage is roughly 60' across and 35' deep. The first violin section (to the left of the conductor) will be typically 25' by 8' deep, pie shaped.

From a simple time of arrival between the concert master violinist to the farthest back (left) violinist is going to be on the order of 30 ms different, from the perspective of a single person in the audience.

So the sonic "smearing" you get from an orchestra recorded with a traditional Decca Tree incorporates all of the phase differences, and player differences.

Then there are other situations, musicals/ pit orchestra etc I have performed in have had many closer mics but in reviewing the playback these have always been a good way to control live sound, the recorded sound has never been as good as an orchestra in a great hall with a Decca Tree or stereo pair IMHO.

In terms of close micing the violin I have always favored a ribbon mic, I use a royer 121 (love to try a coles 4038!) about 2 feet above and slightly behind the violin. Sweetest overall sound I think. In the case Bruce brings up concerning Darol Anger that wouldn't work for a lot of his music because he frequently uses "chopping" - percussive rhythmic bow attack and that sound wouldn't be picked up well with a behind the body microphone - which is probably which he likes the mic straight above the bridge. BTW I would give anything to record Darol - one of my violin HEROS! (BTW one of my favorite all time recordings is "The Lights in the Sky are Stars" live with the Barbara Higbie Quintet Live at Montreux.

I agree on the multiple violin tones - I can bring 2 or three that - one that projects well - my main axe, and my 5 string and a student violin - we will definitely get the tonal difference.

I thinking just taking on the "orchestral" sound would be enough for a class. Adding close micing etc would probably bump into time constraints.

BruceK Wrote 11/29/22

Hi Stuart and Bruce,

I defer to Stuart’s advice regarding the number of tracks per chair.

On the other hand, if you (Stuart) would like to try a Coles STC 4038, I’d be happy to bring one…

BruceT Wrote 11/29/22

And, I vote we include a couple spot mics at this opportunity of acquisition. Because those media assets could be super valuable as future educational content etc. (so just get a couple closer, so we can capture that too...)

And guys...Id be happy to extend this session to a 12 hour block! We can get you back out the door by 1AM at the latest...(promise)

Stu Wrote 11/29/22

Lets try the Coles, and I’ll bring my Royer as well. !!!

BruceK Wrote 11/29/22

Hi Stuart (and Bruce),

It appears that BruceT would like to go ahead with the spaced pair plus two spots. Since you’ve indicated that you prefer to use ribbons and that you would like to try Coles, how about if I bring two Coles? I own a pair of them and a pair of Royer 121s and know them both well for violin: I’ll be surprised if you don’t love the Coles… Bringing the Coles, I can also bring my AEA TRP stereo preamp which is very well impedance-matched for the Coles, and has an appropriate amount of gain for passive ribbons.

The only question I have is whether or not the control room at Foothill can accommodate patching the XLRs on the TRP: BruceT?

BruceT Wrote 11/29/22

Seems perfectly clear to me!

More Questions from Bruce Kaphan 11/30/22

Hi Bruce and Stuart,

I just peeked at the score that Stuart sent… Someone’s been BUSY!

So far, at least with me in the loop, we’ve discussed recording technique and tools for the upcoming session but haven’t discussed global production aspirations per se, and to fully inform whoever will be doing the physical setup, a couple questions remain. My first question to both of you: assuming one or both of you is wearing the producer’s hat, do you have a final panning scheme in mind for this production? If so, where should the chairs go on the floor in the studio? My second question is: how many iterations of each voice (Vln 1-1, Vln1-2, Van 2, and Vla) do you want to record? In other words, how many chairs (total) should be placed for the session?

If a relatively conventional symphonic string section approach is to be followed, such as the example in the graphic below, with no cello (or string bass) in the arrangement, I’m sure both of you can envision (is there a word that describes “envisioning” audio?) how the section will sound if panning follows the conventional example. If we don’t follow conventional symphonic setup, then how would you (producer[s]) like to have the strings set up? **I defer to both of you for however you’d like to approach panning and number of iterations for each part.** That said, if you’re looking to me for an opinion, it would be this: in my experience doing faux string sections, I think that three performances per part is a minimum as this will “smear” time and pitch discrepancies in that lovely, familiar human way that a group of players accomplishes. Three players per part will sound a bit more like a chamber orchestra than a symphony orchestra, but in terms of combining strings with pop music, leaning toward a chamber ensemble rather than a symphonic one usually sounds good to my ear—just my opinion. I leave this decision in your capable hands. As for panning, not knowing the full picture for this production, it would be presumptuous of me to have an informed opinion regarding it specifically. However, in general, it’s my feeling that without cello and string bass to “balance” the panning of the string section, and with two 1st violin parts, for overall intelligibility/mixability of the string section, my first impulse would be to suggest that violas should be seated where cellos are indicated in the graphic*, that 2nd violins should be seated where violas are indicated in the graphic*, and that the 2nd part for 1st violins should be seated where 2nd violins are indicated in the graphic. I’d leave 1st violins, 1st part as is indicated in the graphic. If at a later point whoever is producing or mixing wants to collapse the panning a bit, that will be possible while still retaining at least some of the spatial integrity of the room mic tracks—IMHO, spreading the section out as I’ve suggested will retain maximum spatial integrity while at the same time offering maximum flexibility for collapsing the panning after the fact.

I’m certain that as the arranger, Stuart would have the best idea of whether or not these two instrument groups should be as I suggested or possibly swapped: with 2nd violins in front of the violas?

Anyway, the person(s) doing physical setup will need to know all of the above, and the two of you are better qualified to decide how you want to proceed, so other than the following list of gear, which I think we’ve mostly agreed upon (I leave it up to the two of you whether the spaced pair is Schoeps or DPA—personally, I’d be more inclined to go with the DPA, but either is totally fine with me) and as such is ready to be forwarded to the setup crew, this is me leaving the rest of the decision making, and forwarding to the setup crew up to you!

Channel 1: Spaced Pair (audience perspective) Left (to be stationary throughout session): either DPA or Schoeps small capsule condenser (omni)

Channel 2: Spaced Pair (audience perspective) Right (to be stationary throughout session): either DPA or Schoeps small capsule condenser (omni)

Channel 3: Movable Spot to cover Violin Top: Coles STC4038 (I’ll bring this)**

Channel 4: Movable Spot to cover Violin Back: Coles STC4038 (I’ll bring this)**

Fine tuning on microphone placement to be decided when dos Bruces and Stuart are present.

I’ll also be bringing an AEA TRP stereo preamp for these two mics. It requires XLR connections to and from. I’ll bring necessary XLR to TT adapter cables.

This is me signing off and leaving the rest to the two of you. I’ll see you with two Coles STC4038s, an AEA TRP, and four XLR to TT adapter cables in hand, tomorrow at 12:30.

Best,

Bruce

P.S. BruceT—following up on your Monty Python theme, my niece informed me on October 24, that she was sorry we wouldn’t be able to get together that day, as it was “National Kick a Bruce Day.” Sheesh! What did we do to deserve it???

Stu Wrote 11/30/22

Here's my idea of what we could try to accomplish tomorrow and ideas on future student participation.

Record violins

Do the spatial set up with the idea of getting 3 different violins, each one in two locations based on relative positions in an orchestra arrangement, so 6 positions total. These can be used to supplement the orchestra sample tracks I put in the demo session.

Things to record:

(Each part would be 6 takes. 3 violins X 2 positions, there are 4 parts to record so a total of 24 takes)

Intro thru verse 1 (mm 1-16)

Violin 1, Violin 1 Alt, Violin 2, Viola

Chorus 1 (mm 17-25)

Violin 1, Violin 1 Alt, Violin 2, Viola

(This is enough to cut and paste into the rest of the song.)

Note - we can record the above Intro through Chorus in one pass. mm 1-25. This is about a 1 minute section - 24 minutes of music recorded plus time to redo, reposition, fix etc. Thank goodness this is a repetitive song.

Ideas for the future student activity

Foothill has a choir - or at least students singing for musical theater - get a big group of them and sing the SATB "ooos" live and record
- With either real or virtual instruments add brass and woodwind parts
Create and Record cello and or double bass parts. Other arrangements have half note pedal tones played by the Cello's and Double Bass. Similar to the intro on Viola in the arrangEment I provided.
From the friends or theater students get a singer to sing the chorus "Been spending most our lives, living in the Gangsta's Paradise" to replace the **Tency** parts
Have someone perform the Coolio Rap part.
The original has some interesting percussion parts - a cowbell or pitched bell of some sort - some other things as well. The Stevie Wonder has some interesting percussion that could work.
Record a drum kit, but don't lose the main groove.

Anyhow - my thoughts on how it might be put all together.

See you tomorrow!! **Around 12? Earlier?

Stu

BruceT Wrote 11/30/22

After digging into the Pro Tools Session that Stu sent (with his initial mock up of virtual string section, and listening to some of the many AMAZING orchestral versions of this song that have been performed over the years, I think the best **end game vision** practical objectives for this Thursday Studio Recording Class session is to record Stu's acoustic violins with the intention of weaving them back in to the virtual instrument string ensemble.

Therefore, especially with the time constraints? I propose we simply record every pass with a spaced pair, and cll it good.

BUT....

Regarding all the other microphones?

I propose, at the start of the class, we setup and demonstrate how we "could" use them all! And explain the various techniques as a lecture component in the class. We don't even (really) need to plug in the mic cables. Just talk about it, and DEFINITELY take some photos!

And, time permitting, we can record a single pass of Stu just recording something with ALL the mics (perhaps and the end of the Pro Tools Timeline.